That’s right, we premiered exactly one year ago yesterday — Sunday, January 13, 2008!
And now twenty-two episodes in, look how far away from that pilot episode we are. Surely you didn’t expect Shirley Manson to pop up as a liquid Terminator? Or Brian Austin Green as Kyle Reese’s brother? James Ellison to leave the FBI and work for a machine? Well, we’re still only near the beginning of our story.
For a very cool one-year anniversary special, we’re going to give you one exclusive, extra spoilery tidbit. You might remember that at last summer’s Comic-Con, Executive Producer John Wirth announced that one of our characters would not live to see the season’s end. And as you know, the Connor rid the world of Garret Dillahunt’s Cromartie back in Mr. Ferguson is Ill Today.
But that is not the big death JW was referring to…
It sure makes us wonder. My sister and I are guessing Agent Ellison. We sure hate to see Richard leave the show though, so I hope that’s not going to happen. Hate to see anyone leave! Really a wonderful group of actors cast for this show.
Oh yes, and Happy Anniversary! It’s been a fun year!
I would like to see Cameron put a bullet to Jessie’s head while Derek watches.
Cameron cannot die, do not even try.
Happy anniversary.
Break out the champagne flutes again (or wash the dirty ones in the sink…)! Happy Happy! Joy! Joy! Anniversary Party Time!
Sarah dies. It is inevitable. But she is not allowed to remain dead.
Happy anniversary! Hope I get to say the same thing this time next year!
And man I hope Weaver is the one who bites it.
That said, saying that Cromartie’s death doesn’t count is just all kinds of wrong. For one thing, I loved that robot and I miss him very much even with the promise of more Dillahunt porn in the future.
More to the point, a cast member who shall go unnamed (the one who does all the best interviews and is too important to be killed off for it) made it pretty clear last summer that the big death leads directly to the creation of Skynet. If Wirth really wasn’t referring to Cromartie, then who? Or are you just retconning what he said because no cast members were lost in the filming of the Mr. Ferguson episode and some wankers typed down this observation one too many times on different forums? Because that doesn’t exactly scream confidence. :/
Ack - A real death…if Cromartie didn’t count - then Cameron, Catherine, and John Henry probably aren’t in the mix, so that means we’re left with it being either Sarah (doubtful,) John (more doubtful,) Derek (ratings killer if you do that,) or Ellison.
Well Sarah COULD die in The Good Wound…but be brought back to life
I had a bad feeling that Cromartie’s death wasn’t the one John Wirth was referring to. I think everyone knew going into that episode that Cromartie was biting the bullet. It was too obvious, even from the promos. I have another bad feeling that the character being killed off is one of our main five: Sarah, John, Cameron, Ellison, or Derek. Probably not Sarah or John, but I hate to tell you guys this, any of the last three are possible (yes, even Cameron). Although I WISH Jessie were the one saying bye-bye. And, by the way, if it IS Cameron, Jessie’s the one that kills her.
I just read on the Sitcoms Online blog that Fox has scheduled Prison Break’s final episodes (it’s been canceled) for Friday, April 17th and onward at 8 pm… every Friday until the end of the season. That leaves exactly nine weeks in between Friday, February 13th and Friday, April 10th… counting those days… to air the rest of Terminator’s season. So it’s possible that we can get nine weekly episodes in a row? They speculate that Terminator’s days are numbered, but as we’ve learned in the past, rumors are often untrue.
Happy Anniversary to T:SCC! Viva Los Connors!
Happy Anniversary! I really hope for more seasons of this great show, but if you even think of killing Cameron, I’m done watching.
Shoot! I thought we dodge that bullet with Cromartie’s death. Not that I wanted to see the character go, but because he was somewhat brought back.
It obviously can’t be John or Sarah (unless you’re going to change the show’s name.)
Ellison is the connection that gives us a peek at what’s going on with Weaver, so I don’t think it’ll be him.
I originally thought Derek was going to be a father figure to John, but he seems to be growing up in the last few episodes very well by himself, so I could see Derek as the one that dies even though I’d hate it! (but I’d live)
Cameron could lead directly to skynet being created because she is obviously a different type of model that has been reprogrammed by humans. That might give the machines a better understanding as to how to wipe them out. Wow, would I hate to see Summer go, though.
I guess what I’m saying is that I have no clue who it will be, but I’m sure you guys will make it interesting.
Happy Anniversary! And I hope there will be many more.
Happy Anniversary!
At first I was thinking it would be Riley. But after an interview with Thomas Dekker, who revealed that Riley does not die from her wrist wounds. However, it is then quoted as (And who knows, maybe the interviewer misinterpreted him) “Riley may not be the only character who takes a dirt nap”. So, as long as Riley goes too =) (As I said in “in character”, I think Leven is doing a great job, I just hate Riley haha).
Ellison would be my guess. Maybe Weaver, but she’s got a very interesting storyline. Then again so does Ellison. I couldn’t see it being Sarah, John, Cameron or Derek. They are the life of the show.
it can NOT be Cameron. no way. no how.
right??
please say “no way”
=)
besides, we already suffered thru her being blown up at the end of season 1.
nope. can’t be Cameron. not gone for good.
honestly. i think it will be Weaver.
however it is portrayed…
i think her involvement in ZeiraCorp, along with John Henry and the Turk, spells bad news.
very bad news.
i think her death, and the removal of her chip (does her model have a chip like Cam’s and Chromartie?? i cant remember), could be the tipping point that allows AI and Skynet to synthesize finally.
Who is going to die Elisson! Catherine can not die, has a lot to know about her, her death has no meaning now. The Elison yes, by the mere fact of having chosen the wrong side, he can pay it off.
Please, Catherine can not die
Cameron goes, I go as well. I am sure I am not alone in that, so I doubt it will happen in such a way that she is permanently gone. Jessie shouldnt really count as a main character, but I doubt anyone would miss her. Ellison is at least temporarily integral to plot development involving John Henry and Catherine.
It’d be kinda mean to kill off another Reese, but it could be done. Seems a lot of people like the casting of B.A.G. in this though, so it might be a long term ratings downer to kill him off.
My guess is Riley as that she seems to carry the mark of doom about her.
This offhand analysis is not taking into account that they could theoretically kill someone and then bring back an eariler version of them from someplace in time. While this does present a problem with time travel paradox issues, its not like the first two movies werent rife with those same aforementioned problems. Heck, the central plot of the second movie hinged on a paradox inconsistency (James Cameron is no Robert Heinlein). I got over it though I cause I love killer robots.
Oh yeah, that’s right, it was a year ago! Time flies when you’re having fun! Happy Anniiiversarrry to youuuu!!
I thought that JF was referring to another death - um, can we please not kill Sarah off, pretty please?! I’ve been crossing my fingers since Gnothi Seauton! Just because she’s the title character doesn’t mean she’s safe! (gulp!) After all, Sarah’s never seen or heard from in the future war and she’ll sacrifice herself for John/to stop Skynet no matter what. I love the line Sarah has in D&D referring to fate ‘I’m not trying to change mine. I’m trying to change his.’ [John's] I believe that Sarah doesn’t care what happens to her, just as long as the ultimate mission of stopping Skynet is accomplished and John survives. I think that in her mind, if she dies doing it, it would be a worthy sacrifice.
I know, the viewship would be lost if Sarah was killed off and that these can be pretty unfounded comments, but ya never know!
Seriously, you guys have not only changed my life but my entire family’s too. We’re totally hooked on the show and gather around for every episode. We NEVER had that with anything but the show is bonding us. Special thanks to Summer who is truly the best in what she does. Utterly captivating.
Happy anniversary!!!
Well, the actress who plays Riley was not at the panel, so my money is on Reese.
Well we know that by the series’ end (But long live TSCC!) they will have to explain or show Sarah’s death. Perhaps whoever dies won’t die until the end of the season? Josh Friedman said in an interview that he is keeping both a future for the show and a conclusion in mind. Let’s hope that conclusion is far in the future. The point is that Sarah has to die eventually. Cameron as well may have to die before the series’ end. I don’t know if she can stick around with John all the way until Judgment Day. Jesse and Riley were already planning to kill her so that could lead right to her death. I don’t think Derek has to die but he is definately not in the clear. Nor is Cathering or Ellison i suppose but I do not think it will be them. I personally would love to see Riley and Jesse get killed (terminated) by Cameron but I doubt they are important enough to create all of this excitement. I suppose we can’t really predict who will die but we can tune in on Friday February 13th and eventually find out.
Happy anniversery TSCC! I hope to see you next year!
It simply CANNOT be Cameron, if only for the fact that the ratings would plummet. Besides, you’d have to be a stone cold to go up to Summer and say; “You’re cut!” Seriously, if she cries the same way she did in “Allison From Palmdale” in real life, then there’s no way Friedman could stomach giving her character the axe.
I think it will be Ellison.
However, I’m also nursing a theory wherein John Henry is somehow able to “take over” Weaver’s body and wipe away her “robot soul”, replacing it with his own.
Cue dramatic music.
I will be very upset if anyone but jesse or riley dies.
Happy birthday to the entire team !
However I am really worry about the future of the show : poor ratings, move to friday (often announce the end of a show). And Fox have just shutted down Prison Break.
Also, why didn’t you developed slowly the human part of Cameron. Watching the season 1, I thought you will be developing the story this way, and the crying in the opening of season 2 was really great, thanks to Summer Glau. But now, it seems that we came back to full robotic mode.
Hopefully the person who dies the most is the little bratty, do-nothing called John Baum.
John Cccc….zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
Sorry, I nodded off there for a second.
Him and Riley and Jesse.
The show needs to be lean and mean and PUMPED again. Get ‘er back on the horse, on the tracks, on Prozac… whatever it takes!
At the One Year Anniversary does John Connor get a pair… finallY??!!
Happy One Year Anniversary!!
May TPTB grant you as many more as yours and our hearts desire.
Happy Anniversary to this great show! 22 episodes in, and hopefully a lot more!
I’m very intrigued as to where this story is going! Is Mason going to see action (we know how hard T-1000’s are to kill), what is Reily’s fate (in effect, she is a giant security risk) and Ellison’s situation surprises me.
I know where my rump will be, come the evening of Feb. 13th! I am slightly concerned with the Friday lineup though, as mentioned by Bob.
This is my fav. show on TV, and I’m probably done if anything happens to it! lol.
Happy Anniversary!! :DD
Geesh, I can’t believe it’s been a whole year! I remember the night the pilot aired like it was yesterday… xD
As for the “who dies” deal..
As long as my favorite trio (John, Cameron, and Sarah) stay alive I’m a happy camper. Don’t get me wrong, I love each and every one of the characters.. but those three are the reason I started watching this show. It just wouldn’t be SCC without John, Cameron, and Sarah. =)
I am so enthralled by Shirley Manson’s character, so I will just die if she is killed off. Jesse or Riley, please……..
I’m pretty sure I’ll end up crying no matter who it is who dies. Even if its Riley, or Jesse, who I don’t hate near as much. Because if it’s Riley, while I will be celebrating, my heart will go out to John, who only wanted to feel like a normal teenager (of course, hopefully he’ll know about her lies by then…). And if it’s Jesse, I’ll feel for Derek, who says he loves her.
Ellison or Derek I will sob over. Since I’m guessing no matter what it will be a dramatic scene, I’ll cry no matter what =)
I also can’t wait to see you guys touching upon Cameron seeing herself as damaged. I can’t wait to see what will happen!
Gaah, I need more spoilers!!!
Apart from the three main heroes, I hope it won’t be John Henry, I really like what Garret Dillahunt did with Cromartie. This actor is really a revelation for me in that show.
I would bet on Reese. Brian Austin Green plays well of course, but I really don’t see where scenarists want to take his character to.
Ellison.
I have a feeling it’s going to be Ellison. Right now he’s John Henry’s mentor, and he betrayed the Connors by digging up Cromartie. When the Connors discover the extent of his betrayal, Cameron will kill Ellison, and John Henry (who will have formed an emotional bond with Ellison) will be devastated, and desire vengeance.
I hope its not Cameron, but I have a feeling its Ellison.
Happy anniversary guys!
As for the death I am thinking Ellison… with his involvement to zeiracorp, it could have effects on John Henry.
And I am not hoping it is Cameron. I am not sure I could still watch the show without a terminator on the connor’s side. She is definately my favorite character! Would miss her too much!
John Henry
Jesse
I am glad you are only at the beginning of the story. You guys are loaded with talent and the show is amazing. I am hoping for a massive campaign to pull in new viewers before the 13th of next month and beyond.
Oh, as far as the character that will be X’ed, I am thinking Riley, but it is anyones guess.
I hope colours is right and it is ellison.
cameron ,john,sarah, and derek need to stay , to kill one of them would be stupid and only hurt the show and ratings.
all others are expendable.
I do like weaver and john henry so would be bad to see them go also.
and I have to say it is stupid to kill a major character, for shock value,each major character has a fan group and u lose them with the character.Kill cameron and 1/2 your audience is gone.
HAPPY ANNIVERSARY!!! Love the show! Keep up the great work!
With 2 young kids it’s been next to impossible for me to watch prime time TV shows that they can watch with me if I could even find the time. You know, dinner, bathtime, storytime, bedtime… So, the next morning after a new ep of TSCC airs, I put on Dora for my kids and I watch TSCC on my laptop with headphones on.
I may not be able to watch the show when it airs, but I’ll keep watching it the next morning. I wish the entire cast and crew the best!!
Happy anniversary!
I like the new layout
The white text on black background strains the eyes. Is there anyway you can increase the brightness of the text? The wiki suffers from the same problem.
I feel like I need to again bring up and give tremendous KUDOS to Samantha Krutzfeldt, Lauren, from “Alpine Fields.”
Read the boards and you’ll find that many a fan (including yours truly) is clamoring for her return as a full time regular.
Why?
Samantha OWNED that episode because John Connor has been SO FAR such a stupifyingly weakly written character (again, an oft used descripter: an IDIOT)… and he’s JOHN CONNOR!
Sorry that this sounds harsh again, but Josh and the other writers/producers completely FAILED in their ideas for John this season (S&D fooled us into thinking that John had awakened to at least SOME of his responsibilities due the many outside forces against him AND his determination to make a command decision to not leave Cameron behind even though she was not herself, AND all that he went through in the classic “Terminator 2: Judgment Day Extended Edition”) .
It did not, and has not, sat well with many of the Terminator story fans, even some of the staunchest supporters of TSCC. I’ve read a lot of opinions over the course of this show’s run.
They need to have the “huevos rancheros” to own up to their mistakes, and turn things around.
People WANT Lauren back because she stood up and faced her possible future with a RESOLVE people find LACKING in this John Connor, and REFRESHING in Lauren. The girl had spunk and a kind of grit even though she was thrown to the wolves. She reminded me a lot of John Connor in T2. It made me, and others, wistful for the good ol’ days.
Lauren was more John Connor than… John Connor!
What I’m getting at is when a supposed ONE TIME guest star is MORE POPULAR than John Frickin’ Connor… you know something isn’t right!
One thing that has failed to register on the show and in the character development is that if John and Sarah and Cameron FIGHT NOW… and FIGHT HARD… and FIGHT COURAGEOUSLY & HONORABLY… and FIGHT SMART they can possible stop Judgment Day and help turn the tied in machine and human relations.
John then doesn’t have to be the messiah figure he fears because he and the rest of the gang were heroes in the HERE AND NOW. I hope the Connors aren’t so thick headed that they haven’t thought this through.
Another thing that has been touched upon more elequantly than I could is the overuse of the ANTI-HERO concept and what it says about today’s audience and our society as a whole. Newsweek Magazine has a good, recent article that should be read.
http://www.newsweek.com/id/177742
Another reason why I have not particularly enjoyed the direction of Cameron’s character and how it flies in the face of the original, HERO-BASED James Cameron concepts.
As it is 2009 perhaps we should step back and reflect on the past episodes and see about some real course corrections and make some New Year’s resolutions to get things back on track and GROW THAT AUDIENCE BASE.
I want this show to continue on… but it can’t continue down the same path.
I know I’ve been tough, but I don’t want the threat of cancelation hovering over this show and its superb cast like a vulture sitting on branch over a dying animal.
PLEASE think on it.
It drives me crazy when people attack the fact that john connor isnt the John we expect!! Of course he’s not! Could you imagine how super boring it would have been if he ‘manned up’ and started making the best decisions straight away and just accepted his fate! Im bloody 23 and the most harrowing things that have happened in my life pale in comparison to having no teenage years to discover your self. He’s had to kill a man with his bare hands, live on the run, trust no-one, never think he’s safe, know that everyone he cares about he puts in mortal danger, and accept the fact that he absolutely cannot die or the rest of the human race will be extinct!
How on earth could you just morph into a super commander! You cant! So please stop attackin his character. JC is one of my fave characters of all time and watching him evolve is going to be one of the things this show will be remembered for!
Now onto what i came here to day:) Happy anniversary and thanks for giving us this amazing show to watch. Hopefully in 4 years time we’ll be celebrating your 5th anniversary!!
I’m not looking forward to loosing one of the main characters though as I think theyre all pretty amazing…:O
I really couldnt see JC SC or cameron dying they are too important to the show so who could it be…..
Nigel,
No one is saying be macho man in Season 2, Episode 2. No one is. But for whatever reason (execs. meddling, writer confusion, lack of direction… whatever the case) he suddenly and sadly DE-EVOLVED after S&D when many thought he was slowly realizing that he couldn’t ignore the crazy world around him and his POSSIBLE destiny. Take OWNERSHIP of it. He did when he saved Cameron.
Just like the Cameron who was wonderous and mysterious in “The Demon Hand” has been DE-EVOLVED for much of this season.
John Connor and Sarah Connor and a lower level T-8xx model have already had quite a transformation and awakening in T2.
Most of us have seen T1 and T2 MULTIPLE times. They’re engrained. They’re a part of pop culture too. Just like Star Wars, but maybe to a lesser extent.
I would rather they had moved on from the POSITIVE and HOPEFUL transformations already seen in the two movies (Arnold the Terminator, Sarah, and John) and gone on to build UPON that foundation rather than do a rehash of the same characterizations for half of the show’s potential run. They wasted so much time on what has already mostly been gone over by James Cameron’s stories. The fact that it happened in movie time, rather than TV time should have no bearing. It was done… move on.
I wouldn’t have even brought up Sarah’s cancer if I was going to ignore the poor step child called T3, but now that it has been mentioned, I hope they do something GREAT and HEARTFELT and MEMORABLE and DRAMATIC with the concept that makes John and Cameron LEARN valuable life lessons and makes them WAKE UP from their slumber and EVOLVE.
I hope they’re around long enough to explore theses IMPORTANT plot points.
Sorry Nigel I’ve got to agree with Dan here. The premise of the show is that the end is near and they need to take it to Skynet now before it’s too late. For anyone who has been thrust into a natural disaster or been in the military they know you have to change and adapt immediately or suffer the consequences. Often the consequence is death. There really isn’t a lot of time to explore your emotions. Besides, JC should have been thrilled that he saved his mother rather than whining about having to kill a scumbag.
Dan is exactly right when he says Lauren shows the resolve that people find lacking in JC. He needs to get off his estrogen high and get his excrement together like right now!!
If he was in the military there would have been a blanket party in his honor long ago. I am sick of his spineless demeanor and lack of effort. He needs to get back to being the resourceful hacker that he used to be as well as expanding his operational skills.
Riley’s death would go a long way toward refocusing on his objective.
I also agree with Dan about the de-evolution of Cameron. Ever since the potato chip scene in the S1 pilot I have been intrigued by how Summer played the razor edge between a programmed automaton and a sentient being. Early on she was allowed to explore this and that culminated in the “Demon Hand”. I was eager to see what she would bring to the role in S2 but the writers stopped her development and I have been frustrated all season by that fact. I doubt there is another actress who could approach what she has brought to this character. It is a shame that this aspect of the character and story have been stifled. I believe a much tighter bond between JC and Cameron would allow her to move the character forward and also solidify unit integrity and mission focus for the story line.
Finally, would someone (Producer, writer, etc.) please take the cast to Gunsite for a weekend and treat them to the basic handgun course. Every scene and every promo shot shows the characters with their fingers on the trigger. I hate to see such a dangerous practice depicted on a show that kids watch. Waving guns around with your finger inside the trigger guard is an inherently dangerous and unprofessional practice. The paramilitary background of the characters should depict more safe and professional gun handling skills. ( I know some might think this is a trivial comment but it is something that has been nagging at me so I just wanted to throw it out there.)
I really love this show and I hope that it will have many more years of success but this season has been a decided let down from season one. I think the story line has become too fragmented with questions going unanswered for far too long. Part of this is due to the rapid influx of new characters. Please consider going back to the roots of season one because I’d like to enjoy many more seasons of Cameron, Sarah, and JC.
Snake (Snake Plisken, is that you? LOL!!), whomever you are, you hit the nail on the head.
I know I’ve harped on this in the past. It sounds like I’m hurranging and being a meanie or nagging (no one likes a nag, I know), but I feel the need to hammer these points home.
I hope its getting through to the crew, if they are reading these posts… HOPEFULLY they are as they’re getting from me and you and others a lot of good points to consider.
Though it’s too late for S2, perhaps the Back 9 will be better and S3 and S4 and S5 will be MASTERPIECES of drama, action, and suspense, and humor (with far less sad sack-ness and more hope and excitement)… perhaps another reboot with refreshed and revitalized and more focused serialized stories.
Damn you brought backup Dan;-)
Ok like ye both I have seen T1 and T2 numerous times and they are both high up in my film faves! But im afraid i have to disagree with ye when ye say that john and cameron are devolving and Lauren is what we are looking for (for the record I think she is an awesome character who i wud like to see return:) ). John was a kid in T2 and like anyone of his age (what was he 12?) he couldn’t possibly hope to comprehend everything that was going on in T2 like his life as he knew it was never going to be the same and that he could never have any real friends or have time to meet girls and enjoy things in life. I imagine that the reality of everything began to sink in after.. and i think i have a few examples of how john has took the initiative and taken risks and fought bravely and honourably in season 1 and 2 of TSCC
1. He went against his training in the Pilot to save Sarah from Cromartie.
2. He insisted that they shouldn’t run anymore and instead fight.
3. He disobeyed both Sarah and Cameron in order to destroy the coltan.(plus how scary was it taking the key from around the T888’s neck!) and he also whacked a man on the head with the bar..quick thinking!
4. He wanted to try to save Jordan from committing suicide.
5. He interjected on Morris’ behalf against the guys who were picking on him.
6. If he hadn’t disobeyed and sought out Charlie, Derek would be dead (he also took Charlie down in episode 2.)
7. It was his idea to plug Cameron’s chip into the A.R.T.I.E. system.
8. He killed Sarkissian in order to save himself and his mother.
9. He risked his life to save Cameron when no one else believed in her.
10. He showed quick thinking and decision-making when he took on Cromartie in the pier.
11.He again went against his training to save an in trouble Martin Bidell and he drew the Terminator’s attention in order to save him, risking his life!!!
12.In brothers of nablus when cromartie calls to the connors house and enters against the wishes of riley instead of running john grabbed the shotgun willing to fight the terminator mono e mono if riley cant rid him from the house!
13. His quick thinking in the jail cell saved his ass from cromartie, where if john had felt sorry for himself and did nothing would now be dead.
Now please explain how that = devolving?
i just got one thing to say…if cameron bites the dust, i am done with the show. im not one of those stupid “oh summer is so beautiful shes gotta stay” types. but i will say that cameron’s charatcer brings an ENTIRE new dimension to the terminator saga. with her gone, thats half of the interesting storyline gone. so if she goes im done.
…….but for the record………
summer glau is hot haha ;p
This is the only current TV show that I even watch! Everything else I watch is old re-runs of good shows that aren’t on anymore! I wish you many seasons to come. Also, please kill Riley- she annoys me! Plus if she’s dead John can become the hero everyone is itching for him to be…and he and Cameron can become more of a team again. Anyway, those are just my thoughts! LOL Good luck I really love the show!!
Hey just a quick thought. I just realised that in “Alpine Fields,” we flash forward 6 months. 6 months in the future we see Derek and Sarah (and I think they mention John). Now since a character is supposed to die, doesn’t that rule out those 3? Just an idea.
Long Live Terminator!
If Fox cancels the show, is it possible for another network to pick it up? I would hate to see it end without a conclusion or tie into T3. From what I heard this series is replacing T3, but if that is true, then at some point John will have to meet Katherine Brewster as she is in Salvation.
If Cameron goes, so goes I.Without her its just another weekly series.
you said it mallardman
Happy Anniversary (late). A friend said she read that this show had been canceled. I went into a panic, and checked here online. I am SO relieved to know that it will be on again, February 13, 2009. I would have been terribly disappointed if it had been canceled. It’s my favorite show! I enjoy the stories; I love all of the actors, and the special effects are awesome!! The Sarah Connor Chronicles is exceptionally good television entertainment. Thanks to all who are involved!!!